Correct sentiment Darren and I mostly agree with your statement. However, "And there's no point in paying for an F endorsement if you don't need it - you just make your employee more employable somewhere else." if every business did this, it would no longer matter.

Thats why we were supposed to have a "Standard" of training, where everyone was expected to do the same thing towards our moral and legal duty owed under law.

This is a topic that boils my barnacles a wee bit, ill try keep this short.

We have forgotten what training and competency means and how it is assessed. Competency through apprenticeships is a blend of theory and time on the job, even the modern record keeping and task orientation requirements seem to have subsided.

Roll on technology, the age of laziness.

Companies pay for NZQA training, for all sorts of competencies from forklift to confined space, training providers too scared to fail a candidate. Or worse, now we can complete height safety and first aid online and somehow we are deemed competent. These are called refreshers, not as they should be "reassessments" on job observations pass fail shiny star or do it again.

Too much emphasis on cost cutting and short cuts. Skillsets, quality and safety outcomes are suffering. I see it on projects up and down the country in tradespeople and operational staff.

To become a trainer in house or otherwise "should" have a blend of "X" amount of years of experience based on demonstrated theory platforms and finished by an assessors course, 4098 or similar. Isnt this supposed to be a teaching or coaching or mentoring role?

Thereafter an auditing and observation program in place from management to supervisor's to ensure the outcomes are consistent, or the person sent back for relevant training.

This reliance on outsourcing training surely should only serve as a theory-based foundation, with the onus then being on the business to complete the training on in house systems by an in-house assessor on job.

I asked about a Telehandler course recently, I cant do the theory without demonstrating 200 operational hours.

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

"Most" companies will not make the investment in a full-time trainer/assessor, despite the value in quality and safety across their company.

There is far more to this including our broken education system where young ones have poor mathematical skills or severe literacy issues including legibility of writing.

Sorry not short.

"if you leave the ground there are risks - Controls can be as simple as 3 points of contact and good housekeeping to full height safety equipment etc" - Doing nothing is not an option.

There can be no succinct way of saying this, heights is anytime you leave the ground.

Unfortunately, the HSE Regs 1995 still add the red hearing of 3 metres which is still misinterpreted. This is then further confused by companies and boffins lowering this height and further messing with the interpretation and its requirements, often adding a completely unrealistic expectation and introducing a whole new set of risks to control.

(shhh ... Ladders *GASP*)

Its not "3 metres put a harness on" its that means are provided and fit for the purpose its intended. (ish)

Us nerds need to teach the non nerds that reasonable controls aren't hard or complicated, but then keep it simple ourselves to be practical to implement.

I wouldnt dare disagree with any of the statements, let alone Chris :)

However, I would add that agreed with above, its how we relate the terms from ISO or other formal documentation and make it relevant to those we are trying to educate or apply these terms in a meaningful way.

To me, if any event takes a series of links in a chain to happen, removing as many of those links as possible reduces the risk of that, or other, events (hazards/harm) from happening.

Relate back to Plan, Act, Do, Check. rinse and repeat.

This is also spot on. If the landlord is concerned about cost, wait till they get a bill from a contractor for 3 times as much because they have to assume asbestos is present. Typically however most contractors still shrug shoulders, need the work and blindly go on ahead.

This of couse would show the AMP is not being followed and the PCBU would be in breach of all manner of things.

My god, so many cans with so many worms.

The practical application of all of the above is actually the most important, not the fact of "holding an AMP". I could wave around a drivers licence manual all day claiming I can drive a car safely, but really?

I sincerely doubt if audited Worksafe would be happy with a blanket plan where the risk of asbestos exposure rises considerably where brown or blue asbestos may be present, without any effort to identify I would have a field day with my fine book (if I were an inspector). Without sampling directly from suspected materials, and without evidence of it in action, any generic plan is immediately moot.

By practical application I mean (briefly):

Has the PCBU(s) advised inhabitants and contractors that asbestos maybe present in the building?

Do contractors provide reasonable AMP's for the work they do in these buildings, you can presume cladding is white asbestos? Why? Bear in mind pre 1985's (estimate) Hardy ACM products contained brown asbestos also, these were mass produced and installed in nearly every Goverment buidling in the 70's, hospitals, schools and so on.

This was in roofing, cladding, insulation, gaskets, brake pads and even some concrete fencing. Some internal ceilings (the sparkly type) was a spray on material including blue asbestos.

The investor is expected to spend a portion of profit on safety, especially one that size. That budget could easily include a builder to take samples of some suspected materials (trust me they will know) for testing, then the AMP becomes relevant.

It would be reasonable to expect on acquisition of a property the investor (making this his/her primary income) would have knowledge to do such due diligence before handing over the cash, im pretty sure the law would see it that way.

End of the day, any property investor has the onus to ensure its properties purchased are compliant and significant risks controlled, for occupants and contractors. Builders, electricians and plumbers are most at risk here.

Sounds like a case of "if I don't know, I don't have to do".

If you have concerns, contact your local asbestos removal company (a reputable one) and do a limited sample from inside the ceiling and any concrete products and building materials, go back to the Landlord with the results. Once they know, they must do, then forward them the bill :)

Thanks for taking the time to read and for the questions.

I have to confess I am not an expert on this one and although I can quote standards on Confined space verbatim I am completely new to this topic.

I promise you though, your questions will be answered in the coming days, I am currently working with the gentleman I mentioned in the original post and with regulator supply companies in my spare time.

Watch this space

Hi Anthony

Thank you for your reply, yes unfortunately this happened in New Zealand other instances have started coming to light after speaking to one of the last experts in regulator/gauge repair in the country.

I cant release the incident report yet as the gas bottle supply company are undertaking the final part of their forensics on the bottle, to confirm the bottle or contents had no obvious issues or contributing causes. However, when I realised the possible implications my head nearly exploded. After seeing the videos (linked in the post above) my first thought was an ambulance or hospital having this happen or even at a small Doctors Surgery (GP)

As I go down the rabbit hole on this, any stories I can share will be in this thread and hope as I mentioned we can raise the awareness and deal with it accordingly.

Regards

Lee

Note the explosion has occured inwards out, the jagged material is aluminium. The hole is where the regulator knob and spring once sat.

Another incident I have recently heard is where the employee received significant facial injuries where the assembly and explosion struck him